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Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
306
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 20:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Turelus wrote:The problem is the people looking to gank PVE ships )which have no chance to even defend themselves in PVP due to horrible PVE mechanics) can't always get said ganks because they get spotted early.
Just a tip to those wanting local removed in NullSec, if they do it then everyone will just go back to Empire because the rewards will never be worth he risk in NullSec.
I'm just going to call bs on this one. I, for one, will keep right on ratting, instead of watching local I'll watch a d-scan, be in a fleet with friends, if not ratting right with them in pvp capable ships that have a point and cloak fitted. Alliances will adapt by having sentries on strategic gates to watch activities, and life will go on, and to everyone who chooses to stay the profits will go up because we have less competition.
Local is a problem, but it's a problem with a perfectly viable solution already. I can understand why it exists and it is even justified in immersion by the fact the gates know who and what ships they just delivered from another star system. Now people have a problem with a solution to the problem of instant intel, because it's not 100% accurate. People don't know how to deal with a single unknown thrown into the mix and they want to fix the solution and keep the problem. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
333
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 19:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
Honestly, trying to use the argument that CCP went after AFK miners as a wedge to attack AFK cloaking is a weak one. CCP doesn't want ISK entering the game economy without any effort on the players part, for obvious reasons. I doubt they are worried about a player who generates 0 isk while afk and only presents a perceived threat to other people who want completely risk free isk.
You will not win this argument. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
337
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 20:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Why not? I do. Once you've made the determination that they are afk you go about your business. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
337
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 21:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Tippia wrote:AFK cloakers are not a problem by virtue of being both AFK and cloaked. One means they can't do anything and the other means they can't do anything. Nothing squared = nothing. Jenn aSide wrote: If you give people the ability to hunt cloakys, cloakys will be less useful in altering nullbear isk making behavior, Tippia and Jenn aSide seem to be on the same side of this argument, but their two statements (above) are causing me some cognitive dissonance. If "cloakys can't do anything" (Tippia's statement), then how can they "alter nullbear ISK-making behavior" (Jenn aSide's statement)? Either cloaky ships have no effects, or they have one or more effects; it can't be both. MDD
They can be both, because to the risk averse and those unwilling to adapt, it has an effect, but to those who are more daring or simply know how to deal with it, it has very little if any affect at all. It's all perspective, and the bottom line is an afk cloak physically has zero effect, and has the potential to have a mental effect. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
340
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Eeio wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:What I suspect is closer to an absolutely true statement is this combination of facts: 1. an AFK cloaked ship is indistinguishable from an actively piloted cloaked ship A) Yes he is, just use some common sense. If you are unsure, try baiting him out and pretend to rat in a pvp ship, preferably with a point to grab him when he decloaks and a cyno to bring a counter hot-drop if that is what you fear, or at least be in fleet and have your friends waiting in a safe spot to come to your aid. In any case after a few hours odds are he's just there to disrupt operations, carry on as normal. If you're still unsure, see above. 2. an actively piloted cloaked ship piloted by a non-blue pilot is most likely up to no good  A) This is 100% correct all of the time. An enemy pilot cloaked in your system is NEVER up to any good. He is either there to gather intel, look for a target to hotdrop, or merely disrupt isk making operations in the area. If he's there to gather intel, there is not much you can do, and this is a reality of nullsec - intel is everywhere. Deal with it. (And by deal with it I mean make sure you have your own intel, play the spy vs spy game.) If he's looking for a hotdrop, this is mostl ikely going to happen very quickly within the first 30 minutes to an hour of being there. Why? Because his friends sitting on the Blops Battleship or Titan are going to get bored waiting, and worse, if using a Titan, it is horribly unsafe to have it exposed to danger for any length of time. A 72 billion dollar loss is not worth the risk to catch some carebear in his ratting ship. 3. the first indicator that the pilot of a cloaked ship is active and not AFK is when they uncloak to execute their plan A) Yes. Be ready for it. See Answer 1. Also, barring that, always stay aligned when ratting and mining, if you need help knowing how to do this as a miner, hint: get a frigate and stake out several warpuot points 150+ km from your asteroid and keep aligning in a circle around them. When your target decloaks, he will have a split second delay for targeting plus whatever his locktime is, as soon as you see him, just warp off, once warping starts his targeting is broken. 4. the active pilot of a cloaked ship dictates the time and place of the encounter; the "recipient" of the event has no opportunity to dictate to the pilot of the cloaked ship the time of the encounter (short of "never", i.e. dock up) and limited opportunity to dictate the place. A) If he is active, he is not AFK. People are complaining about AFK pilots. They do absolutely nothing to threaten you, it's all in your mind. If he is active I have outlined some very simple solutions to handle the situation. In closing, I'd like to point out that nerfing afk cloaking could have unintentionally worse results for nullbears who think it will grant them safety. Namely, any time a cloaked ship is in your system for prolonged periods of time, it becomes obvious they are NOT afk, and that DOES present a real threat. Also, there is nothing to stop a pilot from observing and bookmarking where you were mining and ratting at, then log off. While this may be a hit and miss deal, simply logging in and auto-warping to the spot you logged off is much quicker than gate jumping, decloaking and warping ot a location. IF you are not doing the above and he guesses your location right you may get caught. Also, cloaking ships are fairly cheap, there is nothing to stop a large alliance from simply letting any cloak timers run out, ship get destroyed, and sending a replacement in. Trust that the players will work around any solutions you hope CCP would come up to stop this threat that really isnt a threat to begin with. MDD Im still waiting for these people to come up with some proper replies to this thread. They keep advocating well thought through suggestions and observations, and these points are still at the core of the whole problem. And still havent been adressed. A) Addressed. Quote:Also, as has also been explained already, unlike AFK mining (which artificially skews the entire economy of the entire game), AFK cloaking doesn't actually do anything. Finally, I suppose you can dig out some support for that claim that there is any kind of correlation between pro-AFK-cloaking and anti-AFK-miningGǪ? You know, one could argue that afk mining in itself does nothing as well. Refining your ore and then selling it or building something with it, will. A) There is a remarkable difference between collecting materials of value, which can and will be sold on the market, while being away from the computer, and simply sitting unseen in space. The semantics of your argument are poor, you know full well mining brings isk into the game at the point of sale, and at no time does afk cloaking ever do anything of the sort. In anycase, I just noticed that other thread where someone wants to pay new players ISK every month, if they are willing to go camp a designated nullsec system whenever they are offline. Surely thats making ISK while being afk  A) Nothing can stop the players from providing rewards for any activity in game, but agin this argument is flawed. The isk earned was given to the player by another player, it wasn't brought into the game, it already existed.
All answers have been provided above. Cheers!  |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
341
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 14:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:AFK is AFK doesnt matter if its mining or cloaking only real difference here is is that the AFK cloakers most likely never afk ice mined.
This is more or less the point. CCP went after afk miners because they bring raw materials into the game, which directly influences the economy. That's ok if you're doing it but without actually playing this causes inflation because its gained without any effort and sold as such.
Never, not once, has an afk cloaked ship brought materials en masse to the market causing it to crash. The worst he has ever done was strike fear into timid pilots, hurting their individual harvests. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 16:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:[quote=MailDeadDrop] A nice reply (really!) but there's yet another fallacy in it that remains. Your methods of detecting an actively piloted cloaked ship require that pilot's cooperation in converting his cloaked ship into an uncloaked ship. (Detecting an uncloaked, on-grid ship is a trivial exercise.  ) I thought it obvious, but my statement is predicated on the idea that the cloaked ship's pilot is not cooperative. So please tell me how to discriminate between an AFK cloaked ship and an actively piloted cloaked ship (prerequisite: pilot of said ship must intend to remain cloaked at all times). For the record, I am neither a nullbear nor a cloak user; I have no dog in this fight. I'm just here to encourage the use of more accuracy and precision in the discussion. MDD
It's a matter of time and inactivity. People who are active won't usually bore themselves to death by hanging around cloaked in a system for hours. Unless your home system is the staging point for an invasion or the expected target of an invasion, a cloaked pilot has no real reason to stay active for long periods of time other than to disrupt local production or possibly hotdrop some ratters or miners, which in that case that will become apparent after a short amount of time because, again, pilots sitting on stand-by will get bored. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 16:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote: I believe your statements above are partly false (although your intention is to be truthful); if you've got citations supporting your claims, I'd like them.
As far as I can tell, CCP has not gone after AFK miners, or AFK mission runners, or any other AFK activity. If a miner wants to start his mining laser or mining drones on an asteroid and then walk away (letting the miner laser autorepeat), then as far as I can tell CCP is happy to let them do that. Likewise, if a mission runner wishes to start dealing DPS and walk away, then again as far as I can tell, CCP doesn't object.
What CCP has gone after is some folks using automation programs which CCP believes violates the Eve Online EULA.
I don't know that it is reasonable to make any comparisons between AFK miners, AFK mission runners, and AFK cloak users. It is reasonably easy to discriminate between AFK miners and active miners. Likewise AFK mission runners and active mission runners. I know of no way to discriminate between AFK cloak users and active cloak users.
But to reiterate something I said earlier: I have no dog in this fight. I don't know that anything need change with cloak mechanics.
MDD
Good point. I've been gone for over two years (came back to hi sec for a month last year and left again) so I have no idea. I am just running with what I thought I read earlier in this thread, the notion that CCP went after afk miners they should go after afk cloakers.
If it was meant they went after botters then the argument holds even less weight to me than it did before.
I again reiterate the way to determine an afk cloaker is time and inactivity. afk miners or mission runners are making bounty money or collecting ore for sale. An afk cloaker gains nothing, and to be active for any length of time without gaining anything substantial is a waste of many players time. Again, if your system is expected to be an invasion point or a staging system for your own invasion, then it makes sense to have an active cloaked pilot in-system, intel is at a premium in this scenario. To simply be scouting in a ratting system for hours makes no sense. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
350
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Honestly, I don't know why this discussion is continuing.
The fix is simple, balanced and fair: make cloaks use fuel. Doesn't have to be a lot of fuel. It's just going to run out sometime and if you want to do it for extended periods, you're going to need to go get some more.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3230723#post3230723
I've already got a plan. Among other ideas to counter it. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
350
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 18:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Honestly, I don't know why this discussion is continuing.
The fix is simple, balanced and fair: make cloaks use fuel. Doesn't have to be a lot of fuel. It's just going to run out sometime and if you want to do it for extended periods, you're going to need to go get some more. What are you trying to fix here? Why is this balanced and fair? Why shouldn't people be allowed to go AFK for extended periods? Would you also suggest a station or POS, kicks a player out after a certain time AFK? Why should covert ops pilots be nerfed, because others cannot handle the fact local isn't providing 100% perfect instant intel?
How awesome would that be? I have several random Titans and supercaps bookmarked that I could wait to just go flying out of the pos shields.  |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
350
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 19:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:The AFK cloaking problem.
A problem suggests there is currently no available solution to it. You have been offered quiet a variety of solutions to date. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
352
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 19:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mag's wrote:What Tippia said. What mag's said Tippia said.
What Jenn said mag's said Tippia said. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
353
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 19:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
You know it just dawned on me what the solution is. Players will just throw an MWD on a fast interceptor and burn up from a safe. Now he can be afk, not worry about fuel concerns, knowing no one can scan him and catch him, and can still warp down to a belt and tackle and cyno in support when he gets back from being afk.
A solution has already been made for your solution. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
353
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 19:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote: I think you're being a bit silly here, pretending not to see any potential problem with an AFK cloaker. I know you're not stupid, so I don't think an explanation is really necessary. Please refer to my post on intentionality.
It's a bit silly to contend that there is a problem when many of us have told you the solutions already. I can do your job in a mack without fear because I know what to do. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
355
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 20:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
I feel like helping the less fortunate.
NEVER NOT ALIGNED TO SOMETHING
If that's not security enough perhaps it's worth noting this is what I did in hi-sec mining on my other character, Ituhata. Hi sec is considerably more difficult, you know why? Because with all the random people in local your intelligence is considerably degraded. You have to stay on d-scan and watch for the catalyst gank and learn who to watch for in a local of anyhere from 30 to hundreds of players.
|

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
355
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 20:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:I feel like helping the less fortunate. NEVER NOT ALIGNED TO SOMETHINGIf that's not security enough perhaps it's worth noting this is what I did in hi-sec mining on my other character, Ituhata. Hi sec is considerably more difficult, you know why? Because with all the random people in local your intelligence is considerably degraded. You have to stay on d-scan and watch for the catalyst gank and learn who to watch for in a local of anyhere from 30 to hundreds of players. Yes, you do. But a player pays a cost in high sec when he ganks you: His sec gets a hit (OK, it's a throw-away alt, ignore that) and Concord ganks him.
Which is irrelevant because they only need to kill a Hulk to succeed then loot the field and financially it pays off, or again, it's done for the lulz.
The point is there is a solution to dealing with an afk cloak, if that's not enough put stabs, keep a flight of ecm drones or maybe try your luck with an ecm burst module. This is all stuff you can do on your own, let alone if you had friends. But lets not forget an afk cloak by definition is harmless, and once you make the determination that someone is definitely not letting their eyes bleed by not having fun staring at space in a cloaked and powerless ship for hours and that they left the keyboard and are hoping to scare you, then don't. This is psychological warfare aimed at hurting an opponents economy. It's only effective if you let it be effective. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
355
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 20:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote: This is psychological warfare aimed at hurting an opponents economy. It's only effective if you let it be effective.
Well, that's the point all of you AFK cloaking fans are missing, it's AFK psychological warfare. There's no cost to you whatsoever. There is a psychological cost to the people you're trolling.
But I am trying to teach you to not be afraid of it. Once you learn this, it becomes a complete non-issue and you can even chuckle in the knowledge that someone is wasting 15$ a month on a character that is not doing anything to slow you down. 
|

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
355
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 20:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Please tell the TEST ratters this. They seem to not like the afk cloaked Blackops covert ops ships.
They should start grinding isk for ships since they get blown up every now and then and the reimb---
I heard Durrhurrdurr on comms last night. It was at that moment I realized you don't tell that man anything, you just listen and laugh your ass off. 
|

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
355
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 20:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:But I am trying to teach you to not be afraid of it. Once you learn this, it becomes a complete non-issue and you can even chuckle in the knowledge that someone is wasting 15$ a month on a character that is not doing anything to slow you down.  Sure. But for me that isn't the point. It's just poor game design.
Maybe, but instant local intel was even moreso. But that's why the playerbase came up with afk cloaking as a mechanic to counter it, so that you can't be 100% sure it's safe to go out. It's not perfect, because after a while people should start to realize you are afk, so you surprise them every once in a while. Still, nothing they can do can hurt you if you are prepared to deal with it. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
355
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 20:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote: And here you the SOP or the modus operandi. Same format over and over for every thread. They are not able to acknowledge there is a issue at this point because then it would make them look even more ignorant for all the previous bad posting.
Where is the issue, other than the one where you refuse to take the tools readily available to you to make what you think is an issue and turn it into a non-issue, and instead want someone else to hardcode a solution that makes you perfectly safe from the influence of other players.
|

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
362
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 15:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote: Exactly how would pressing a button every 15-30 minuets to remain cloaked put the cloaked at any greater disadvantage... Correct it doesnt
Well if I were out in my cloakie and I needed to go afk in a hostile system without any POS or Station to go safely to, and I have an aggression timer so logofski isn't a viable option for the next 15 minutes, well...I guess I'm boned.
But since I know what it is you are really looking for, let me pose the counter-question: Exactly how would having anyone who hasn't spoken in local chat in 15-30 minutes disappearing off the local window going to change your gameplay?
Scary thought, isn't it? But that's why you don't like the afk cloaker, because it ruins your perfect security blanket that is local intel. Perhaps if you worked on championing a solution to that problem you might get CCP to look inot solving your own personal problems, because it's not a problem to the rest of us.
Source: I rat in 0.0 and dgaf if there is a hostile in local, cloaked or otherwise. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
362
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:It doesn't give free intel other than to show the person has been at their kb in the last 30 min..seems fair to me. He'll make it 45 min. If you can't be at the on playing the game then you shouldn't be in the game.
FYI your replies to the question where so inane I thought you were trolling
Sooo....it tells you that after 30 minutes that the guy in local that you still can't find is an actual active threat, I don't see how that gives one side an advantage at all....I am stumped.  |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
362
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:I guess for the same reason a person should be able to be cloaked up while sleeping in bed forcing others to adapt to their presence in system. Same thing afk ice miners said until they changed it 
Only afk miners were bringing materials into the game with no effort on their part, seriously devaluing the market. CCP kinda cares about that thing. People have been complaining about afk cloaking since I joined the game and CCP has not done anything about it because its not a problem, and trust me, I argued your side once a llong time ago, but I've come to understand the situation and have changed my position.
Listen, a cloaked ship makes no isk. it doesn't mine materials, it doesn't earn pirate bounty, it doesn't transport goods, it doesn''t play the market. It does nothing but scare weak-minded people. It has zero effect on people who know what it is and are prepared to deal with it. It only forces you to adapt to their presence in system because you let it.
And the whole reason it exists in the first place is because of local intel. AFK cloaking is a player made solution to a broken mechanic, and you want it changed because now an unknown has been introduced to what you thought was a 100% effective safety blanket. You want CCP to make it so you always know when its safe to go out and bring isk into the game by ratting and mining.
Well, if that guy wants to waste his 15$ a month sitting afk in a system, I don't think CCP is going to care. He's not doing anything but helping to control the isk faucet problem. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
363
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Hey Sarcasm, what kind of ratting or mining ship do you fly?
I want to help you out. I like helping people, I'll show you how you can do whatever it is you do right under the nose of active hunter ships, let alone a cloaked inactive one. |

Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
366
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:Kijo Rikki wrote:Hey Sarcasm, what kind of ratting or mining ship do you fly?
I want to help you out. I like helping people, I'll show you how you can do whatever it is you do right under the nose of active hunter ships, let alone a cloaked inactive one. Thank you for the kind offer but I left null a month ago.
Well anytime you get the urge to go back to the lucrative yet shark infested waters that are null, hit me up. I will gladly teach you how to swim outside the cage.  |
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